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Another stupid question?

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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby AndreR » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:52 am

“Today I am angry as I try to trust my positive side, and I haven't felt anger in a long time, and it's not a very convenient time to feel anger, I can only imagine I'm angry at myself for having a nice thought. How am I going to tame my anger as I become more and more positive?”
In this comment alone may offer evidence of the anger arising from the conflict that goes on between the minds pre conditioned state and the part of you today that considered following positive and uplifting thoughts.

As soon as you considered a more positive life, to regain control of what changes you want to make, the conditioned mind of bad thoughts is shaken; it feels it is losing control of you, it is becoming fearful. Why? (This is important to note)-Because the part of the mind that was conditioned from bad experiences is afraid, it is scared of itself. It doesn’t know what to do with this fear, so it keeps projecting past negative experiences on to you.

I wish to express a view and hope not to offend anyone, as always aim to help in some way through offering another perspective for consideration, but if the likely hood anger does arise that this could provide evidence of that the created negative thoughts part of you wanting to keep this sort of thinking away from your knowing. Now this negative part of the mind created from bad experiences now has a purpose. This is how it survives. BUT it can only survive by being fed. It is fed by the belief and recognition that this false and created sense of self really exists. In the belief that the bad thoughts of the past can cause harm today.

This part of the mind doesn’t exist as the natural part of you. It was created from negative experiences; therefore it does not know that to project the bad thoughts on to you is a good or bad thing? It just does it out of fear. So in turn you are experiencing second hand pain and fear from this created part of the mind, believing it to be yours. ‘Owning’ someone else’s thoughts.
Why does this part of the mind still exist? Because it is recognised. It is believed to be your true state of mind. It remains because it is valued; it remains because it is believed to have control because of the same kind of control that a person may have taken away from you in the past.

An abusive person aims to take control, to weaken a person down in order to belittle and control. If the thoughts in your mind come with that abusive person’s voice it is then understandable as to surrender to the thoughts as the voice triggers the reaction of the person struggling to cope.

The anger being experienced is the negative part of the mind “having a tantrum”, because it knows in some way it is being looked at and doesn’t want to be seen, but to continue to hide and pick away at you.

Remove all valuing, refuse to no longer feed its fear, starve the negative, see this part of the created mind for what it really is, it then cries out in one last struggle to survive by blasting off a load of bad thoughts in an attempt to regain control, hoping you will submit to its anger once again. Holding fast to refusing to believe and accept eventually quietens it as it cries away to dies and no longer exists.

By the way I have used the word ‘you’ but used to express as well for any person.

I would like to suggest an unconscious/conscious powerful experience; something that I feel will be surprising and may offer an understanding not experienced before. BUT only If you feel comfortable to do so (and any other member if they wish to?) it is worthwhile. The more prepared you are the better the experience.

Maybe go through this while reading the process?.
Sit in a place where it can be quiet and are undisturbed, turn any phones off etc. Calmly imagine a dark cloud in your mind, try to see it within your mind through imagination. I expect we have all seen the Tom and Jerry cartoons, you know the one where the dog and cat fight, and they are sort of scrapping in a cloud of dust. We cannot see them but for the odd arms and legs flying out of the dust cloud and back into the cloud again.

Well see the dark cloud in your mind like this. But instead of arms and legs flying out and back into the cloud, see all the bad thoughts in words, all the frightening and impacting words shooting out of the cloud and flying back in, a cloud with shouting, chaotic and fighting words from bad thoughts.
( At this point it is important to check how you feel, if the words and thoughts are triggering? STOP. Only continue if you feel you can. Just remember, what may help is knowing that these bad thoughts and words cannot harm you, that you are just ‘observing them’)

Ok then, now you see this dark cloud with these horrible and angry words flying out then back in. Visualize a door opening at the top of your head. Like a double door opening up and wide on top of your head, next visualize the chaotic cloud with all these flying out and in words lifting out of your mind slowly, up through these doors and visualize the cloud floating up slowly to the top corner of the room, don't rush this process, let it rise and up slowly. Still watching is with the bad words flying out and in, chaotic and shaking around.

Now visualize this cloud in the top corner of the room high up and watch it for a while, say for about a minute or a few minutes. Sit and watch the cloud, angry, shouting, voices and words, see the words scared, fear, angry, a person name who hurt you, the bad names called to you, everything that you think should be in that cloud. Still sit watching this cloud far away from you in that top corner of the room, watch in concentration, see the words, how they clash.

After about a minute or a few, then suddenly while watching the cloud, don’t move you head or your eyes looking up into this corner and as you watch this cloud in the top corner, and just suddenly turn your attention to how you feel inside? Try to look within, become aware to how you feel? What do you feel inside your body and mind?

I won’t answer to what you will feel and how you will feel; I will leave it here and reply once you or anyone has tried this. but feel free to reply in depth with how you felt and what you experienced about yourself. Note: within the results you may also feel a profound emotional effect, if so, let it happen.

The main thing is not to be disturbed, aim to visualise the cloud realistically the best you can, allow enough time for the cloud to stay in the top corner of the room and allow yourself to contently observe and watch it.

Its a way to understand that the bad thoughts dont belong to you, that they have been placed there by another, or from an unwanted experience.
As always take care Troppus.
Last edited by AndreR on Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby GrannyV » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:00 pm

Hi Andre

What you have suggested there is pretty much what "The Sedona Method" book has taught me to do. To release negativity and to be the person I wish to be rather than being held back by whatever I may be allowing to badly influence me.

It focuses very much on being happy and content and acceptance of things rather than attempting to fight it.

Wouldn't it be good if children, who apparently have this natural release, are taught to hone in on it and use it as a life skill. Maybe that way it could start to reduce the number of people suffering mental health illness. Just a thought - I don't know.

Thank you Andre you are always truly inspirational although I have to admit sometimes you really make me thing long and hard and I do not always quite understand everything, but I do always try. You help so many people on here and are always so calm and reassuring.

Happy Easter :D
Much Love
Granny V x x x x

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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby AndreR » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:34 pm

Hi Granny V

Thank you for your kind words. I haven’t heard of the Sedona Method. But sounds similar in effect from your description.

What I hope for Troppus and others if wished too, is the experience of ‘separation’ of the bad thoughts from the mind. This can be quite powerful in that when the thoughts are projected away and that the person experiences their true self or of themselves before difficulties came into their life. This can be quite touching for that person as they re connect with themselves. On occasion this experience may cause a permanent shift that may lead to that person being able to make the changes that they had hoped for.

But more importantly begins to realise that the bad thoughts and words are not a part of that person, that they were placed there and by having to learn to accept them as correct at the time of the negative experience. To experience that once the words are outside of themselves the control and affect these bad thoughts and words had no longer exists.

This is a way to create a shift that brings recognition and acceptance in that the person can believe they can have control over what to believe and what not to believe can control them. But certainly a worthwhile experience.

I agree that children would benefit from a similar experience that could help lead to problem solving skills in turn learns to cope with everyday difficulties and the challenges that life brings, but unfortunately in some cases of a dysfunctional environment can make the progress more difficult.

Yes I agree, :? I am conscious that my posts may not be the easiest to follow and may find members may get lost part way through. I usually find that my words tend to speak off in the deepest sense and may often be challenging to stop every so often to understand, at times I often have had feedback that after re reading through seems to bring to light what I am trying to convey. ;) But I often hope that there is something within that may assist others, even if it is one sentence that could make a difference, matters.

I hope everyone has come to know when I reply may tend to be a long one, although may not always be readable at times :shock: .

Apologies Troppus I have gone off topic a little here, but still aware that the post is yours.

Happy Easter to you both too.

Take care

Last edited by AndreR on Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby Troppus » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:02 pm

Purefuratrated people don't admit always that they feel others are to blame. It's not an option to blame others, as that is just engaging with the perpetrator. I live under a lot if scrutiny. This morning alone my mother has ridiculed me and compared me to others ' why can't you be like so and so'? she says. And then she comes and ask me what's wrong? So I feel my negative is being fed by her and other family members.
Now while of course it's her influence on me that has lead to my self loathing and reinforced by the worlds natural critic that we all face in life, I am abundantly aware that the problem from my view is not hers. It's mine. Becsyse it's how I'm reacting to her criticisms that's the problem. I'm responding by feeling bad, staying alone and away from everyone. So the answer is not to blame but acknowledge influences, things driving bad ways of thinking. Because I have no power to change her, if I was highly successful etc she would still find flaws. I can only pity her for the depth of anger she has. She compares me to others, so I compare myself to others as a result, it's built into me. I am not that strong against such forces as I haven't really had much other contact with people growing up and not much now either, had I have had friends or someone to talk to earlier in life I may have faired out better and had other influences. Everyone gets their own amount of knocks in life, but it's how we respond, how resilient we are as Rocky says ' it ain't how hard you hit, it's how hard you can get hit and keep getting back up again'.
Perhaps I need to take full ownership of the negatives surrender to them I a controlled way. There's so much on society today also when people say ' I feel down' everyone's reacts with ' no you don't, here try this' in my life anyway, so many solutions thrown my way. Perhaps I'm wrong but what about if I was to just surrender to the feeling of doom, then again my depression is a fight like ' I don't like how I'm feeling', maybe I should be saying ' I'm feeling terrible but it's okay feel terrible'. Ah Iv a twisted head i know. So before I try your exercise I'm going to spend today owning my undeserving attitude just to see what happens.
Andre your making perfect sense, I will find a moment of quiet during the weekend to practise that exercise you so elegantly and easily describe. While I read it first, I had no knowledge of bad thoughts surface ( resistant again probably because I'm not owning the feeling) so I will have to practise it a few times perhaps to get to the core thoughts, as I'm spinning in emotions after this morning and cannot see the sources of my bad feeling at the moment. Well obviously it's my mother, but I'm trying to look at how I'm processing ( I sound so in deep thought yet I'm hiding crying and hurt). And yet I'm worried too that if I experience a sense of separation I'll have nothing left. It's something I'll have to work on. Yes granny v I agree with you, in that there should be more done for prevention of bad mental health and it should start from a young age. If I ever have kids I hope to teach them skills to cope with the big bad world but I have to learn myself first (hopefully I don't go overboard and end up a hippy :lol: )

Anyway again thanks Andre I read your posts a few times over I find them very helpful, not just on this thread but in others too, providing solid and a vey useful perspective as it's sometimes hard to ' look ouside the box' when we are lost in thought. If you ever write a book, id certainly buy it.

Happy Easter everybody
And thanks again for taking the time to reply to my stupid questions with such great help and advice

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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby PureFrustr8d » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:20 pm

Just a thought: better to blame the people who are responsible than blame yourself for not knowing how to cope with it ;)


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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby ooby » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:04 pm

Anyone who was involved with a reactionary piece of tripe like 'The secret' is a non starter for me. These self appointed,self promoting 'experts' on the human condition are a dime a dozen. If you pitch it right there's good money to be made out of people's issues.

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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby Troppus » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:57 am

Ooby what's the secret got to do with anything,we all know that the secret is a load of shite but better to die trying
What's the alternative??

The secret along with lots of other self help books had proven to help some people perhaps who are in fairly good consistent mental health and encourages good thinking and feeling. Everybody is different, what is help to you may not be of help to me. We already know there's lots of jargon out there but whatever helps it's better to keep looking and trying even if it means just the cost of a book. Personally I dislike the secret because it states to avoid negative people at all cost. Is that why people in my life are avoiding me. We cannot avoid negative people or negative thinking, we have to deal with it, and nobody said life was going to be all good. Hence my question 'how to get rid of bad thoughts', I'm talking about styles of learned thinking that is bad, taken over my life and ruined everything. I already know a self help book won't cure me but knowing what's worked for others might and the more snippets of info I have to arm myself for when the shit hits the fan the better. For when I am having a good moment it's then I work on these things. We must try everything we can.
Last edited by Troppus on Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:56 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby Troppus » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:11 am

Andre I wonder why you have edited your posts?
Does this mean you will not be sharing that other method here?
That's a pity because Iv been trying to clear thoughts and organise them as such and I'm failing miserably. Perhaps there is no cure or help for some of us. Glooms to engrained in our souls.
When I have tried to focus nothing comes up, I get a blank. I'll try again tomorrow but when I'm consciously trying to get up bad thoughts they disappear! They're running the show so well that they are not going noticed. I am feeling awful though if that's got anything to do with it. When I get stressed my sinuses go haywire and the gums around my wisdom teeth inflame and get infected, but I think that's just the stress.
Maybe its not bad thoughts I should be going after at all and feelings instead!
But what comes first thoughts or feelings?
I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to that one but all I know is I'm feeling bad all the time and it's the thoughts leading me to act on the bad feeling

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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby AndreR » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:40 am

Hello Troppus

Yes I have edited my post and do so also on other posts because I am conscious of putting too much out to soon all in one post. I haven’t removed the edited section of calming the child inside to no longer post it, but decided this would be better in a post of its own.

I find sometimes coming back to a post later on and reading back through tends to show me what may confuse the main message. So when editing helps to ensure the main message stands out without too much confusing stuff around it.

I have used the cloud method with a number of people over the years with good feedback on its effectiveness and for some has helped to change their lives, if not had certainly helped all in ways to cope at the times needed to. Yet this method did take some practice due to the minds noise going on at the time of trying. So preparation is a key and may take a number of tries as the mind moves towards working with this. So no hurry with this, it’s better to take your time when the conditions are right.

To answer your questions: thoughts, lead to feelings, lead to psychical behaviours, but the difficulty is that these 3 can go round and round, from physical behaviours thoughts are created about the behaviours so the cycle starts again, it’s about finding a way to break this cycle, the cloud is one way.

It’s the thoughts that come first; the feelings are a result of the thoughts. So with the cloud it’s to ‘visualize the thoughts as words’ flying out then back in and If you struggle to see the words without the feelings, put the feelings into the cloud as well, the words and everything associated with the words like feelings put them all up there with the cloud.

To see the thoughts as words not belonging to you, once you have put this cloud in the top corner then this is the key moment when you suddenly pay attention to ‘how you feel’ inside. 'How you feel should not be the same feelings associated with the words in the cloud'.

There is a genuine reason behind these kinds of help but may take a long post to go into the psychological science behind them, I am ok with long posts, but conscious of losing readers who may lose interest.

Don’t be too hard on yourself if not experiencing or managing this straight away, it helps a mind with bad thoughts, so trying this with affecting bad thoughts going on will take practice, but once you get past this I feel you will know.

The calming the emotions through the child inside I will post later this evening on its own post, hopefully without too much waffle from me. ;)

I wasn’t sure what ooby was referring too? If ooby was referring to my own post or PureFrustr8d? And didn’t fully understand the significance of the reply? I have heard of the secret but never read it.
This didn’t attract me because of the media negativity it received before it came to publication.

The videos advertising the secret seemed a bit too farfetched for me. But I fully agree with whatever works for people to help them should not be discouraged.

Many people seek religion that helps them. There has even been a test on placebo effects with patients taking pills with no beneficial medicine in them. So if someone finds relief and hope through any method in life, especially if it had saved them from suicidal tendencies must be a good thing.

Might be something to consider posting on its own if ooby wishes too anytime in the future? Could help other members to share and discuss what did work from these kinds of self help books etc? Another way for members to add things that could help them in some way? Thanks ooby for sharing your thoughts on this.

Take care both
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Re: Another stupid question?

Postby Troppus » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:39 pm

Hi Andre
Thank you I appreciate your reply and look forward to your post later this evening. I find your posts fine to read. I haven't found you to be waffling at all even though I'm guilty of waffling useless nonsense all the time, I find at least your posts are practical and offer a knowledgable understanding of issues.
The problem with people like me is we are always looking for problem fixer and if something doesn't work can easily dismiss it or criticise it. However i have learned the hard way that there is some good in everything, what one person takes away from something others may not, and as everyone source of bad thinking will be different so too will the solution which provides relief.

Purefrustrated it's not an option to blame others, this I feel leads to bitterness and hate ( learned this the hard way also) it's better to try and forgive perpetrators and hence free ourselves from victimhood, even though that could take a lifetime I know. I find having negative feelings about others is not working for me, because I get depressed too often and when I do all the negative stuff goes inward ( back to me) so I try not to blame, judge, criticise for when it turns on me it's very powerful. I try and fail a lot though. Someone said something wonderful to me last month ' you only judging others because your judging yourself'. What an amazing comment I thought and recognised immediately that I was judging a stranger on their clothes while simultaneously judging my own choice of clothes! Society are constantly judging everybody, everything constantly these days and probably since the beginning if time. Why I wonder it must be because we are striving for perfection ( we are a silly bunch, the human race ) id rather be a chimpanzee or a giraffe anyday, but wait, they do it too! doh!

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