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Another stupid question?

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Troppus
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:49 pm

Another stupid question?

Postby Troppus » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:35 am

Sorry Iv another stupid question
How does one stop thoughts? Bad thoughts that go round in loops? And hows the loop finally closed?

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated

brokenbuscuits
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: Another stupid question?

Postby brokenbuscuits » Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:13 pm

i like to put my hands on either side of my head hold it firmly and give it a wobble. haha im sorry il let someone in a more sensible mood answer that one mes thinks. love ya though xxxxx

AndreR
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:34 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Another stupid question?

Postby AndreR » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:38 am

Hello Troppus

Certainly a good question that could have so many answers.

In a nutshell, I believe that with every difficult experience, with every problem, no matter how big or small, the answer to heal comes instantaneously with it. Yet could be so quick it can be easily missed and lost within the trauma of the experience.

Accepting the answer or not could be the most important decision to make, possibly unawares of the importance that lies in this choice for the future.

Awareness, acceptance and understanding of the answer to heal oneself arising from any unwanted experience may lead to a path of actual healing of the mind. In turn may break the loop of thoughts that keep circling over. Freeing the mind of the torment being experienced.

If the mind becomes shocked by any unwanted and difficult experience to an extent that even the answer becomes misunderstood, unrecognised and something to fear then the thoughts may continue to circle without that person being aware if there is any answer to find in order to break these bad thoughts.

Unless someone else could show the answer to that person, to help them understand the answer and to help them achieve what the answer requires them to do in order to heal the mind.

The bad thoughts may stop once that person withdraws all faith in believing that any tormenting thoughts have any control over them. How does a person withdraw their belief in how these thoughts have control? By revisiting back to the answer that first came with the problem, but may struggle to do this alone if in the case that the problem caused a shock so great to disguise the answer.

With the help of another may find the courage and the strength to explore and together to find the answer needed, a path could have then been found for a way to heal as time continues.

As soon as the answer is recognised and understood may find that the loop automatically breaks without any self intervention, to then find a struggle to locate these bad thoughts that could have been long torment.

I believe the answers are always within each person; it’s how a person understands, recognises and changes their understanding about what the answer is. That the main blockage to this is the fear of exploring for the answer, yet maybe unawares that exploring for the answer may break the fear.

But to explore and find what is hoped as the answer could be best achieved with another, one who could experience a genuine trust from, can feel genuine compassion, to feel truly cared about, and appreciated for the true person you are, to offer to hold your hand and shines a light into the darkness ahead in order for you to find the way to heal.

Maybe a strange way of describing but I hope this may offer a view.

Take care

Andre
Do it...Afraid.

Troppus
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:49 pm

Re: Another stupid question?

Postby Troppus » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:12 am

Hi buscuits and Andre,

I have been trying both your wonderful responses, although I did get a headache buscuits.

Andre thanks for such a detailed and informative reply. It makes good sense. However I am struggling. What if the person does not know what problem or experience caused the bad thoughts? Particularly as you say the mind is shocked so missed the answer and solution. I find I am not even aware I am in a pattern of bad thinking until my behaviour changes and becomes noticeable to others. I've been searching for answers and sources for years and not found it. Also how could another person ( there are not many genuine trustworthy people in my life, I don't think Iv ever met anyone who is trustworthy and genuine if such a person exists) help? Especially if they were not around when the shock occurred, and would have to rely on my version of events, which is also conflicted by the fact my account may not be quite accurate, as I am obviously still in shock, or is that just me trying to unconsciously do some more blocking. Umm

PaulMoore
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:55 pm

Re: Another stupid question?

Postby PaulMoore » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:12 pm

Hi Troppus,

I suffer from the same thing. Uncontrolable loop of bad thoughts from the past and/or current situations, then that will trigger things like self-harm, self punishment, lack of sleep and food, depression and anxiety. Some things that have worked in the past for me was going out have a laugh and drink with friends, or even play a computer game has taken my mind away from things, but its not full proof. A therapist suggested to me once I might have boarderline personality disorder which means you are more sensitive to your emotions, but doesn't mean you are weak or soft, you just feel more. "rage instead of anger, panic instead of nurviouness". Maybe look for triggers that start your loops off? A bad friend/girl friend maybe and avoid those triggers. Also depression can put you in a loop of bad thoughts, maybe see your doctor and they might suggest some anti-depressants? Or maybe see a therapist and talking through whats on your mind might help you make more sense of things and deal with things better. Hope some of this helps, and your not on your own mate.

AndreR
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:34 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Another stupid question?

Postby AndreR » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:13 pm

Hello Troppus

Wonderful questions, following on from your initial post. This is an excellent way of asking profound questions that can only come from a place more nearer your core. These are the kind of questions to expect to follow your first ones. I feel that your thinking the right way. I shall aim to answer for you.

Depending on the level of the negative experience and the time in the past it had happened, it may well be unlikely that a person could locate the source within that could be driving their behaviour today on their own.
An unwanted experience leaving someone feeling blocked over time may begin to lose its identity, in turn becomes hidden from memory, therefore could experience difficulties in trying to locate the source of any behaviours being experienced today.

Often finding that triggers are kinds of signs to what is hidden from your awareness. Triggers may often be closely connected to the hidden pains unaware of, and the thoughts and behaviours resulting from triggers may provide clues to the causes.

Being unaware of your behaviour is understandable, triggers may shift your consciousness so quickly you may not be aware of the shift, only by finding that others could make comments on behaviours, at the same time you may question what they were talking about! As the behaviour is one with you and may have not noticed a difference.

The mind may suffer a shock that leads to a conscious blockage, away from the answers and solutions. But it doesn’t mean that the answers and solutions are not there. Removing the blocks to your awareness of the answers and solutions would be the process, in turn brings back clear thinking and may find that the space in the mind expands in order to begin to feel an awareness to lost memories of the past..

Searching for answers for years may not be uncommon, searching is common, but knowing what to look for amongst a pyramid of blockages may have left you feeling like you could have been going round a maze.

I agree that to find a person who I had described with the ideal traits, skills and character can be rare. But cannot be proved that there isn’t anyone who can meet these qualities, I believe that there are people who help in this way, its a matter of falling upon the right person.

Counsellors are expected to go through personal development which could help them become good counsellors that are able to create the right conditions in therapy for trust, genuine and unconditional regard and compassion to be experienced by the person seeking help, unfortunately I feel this is not always successful and could be one of the main reasons for people not finding therapy helping. People in pain and suffering can have heightened sensitivity, a counsellor helping without the right personality and characteristics may not find the therapy going well in my opinion.

If a person has experienced a negative life event that has resulted in blockages as a way of the mind protecting itself, that person may struggle to locate the source of their mental and psychical behaviours and thoughts being experienced today. How then can this person find a way to heal inside? The mind is where the problem is in the first place!.

They would benefit most from another person who has the right personality, character and qualities to help them become free from what they are not able to find. To draw upon their strength, belief and courage.

A helping person like this would have gone through life's experiences and had gone through a self personal development in order to find themselves with an awareness and understanding of others and sensitive to their pain and suffering. Such a person may not need to speak often, just by their mere presence, a person in pain may feel a sense of knowing that this helping person touches them inside their mind in ways not imagined, leading to opening up about their pain and suffering.

An important trait amongst many others is trust, without trust in the beginning the ‘therapeutic relationship’ unfortunately is expected to break down and progress not made.

Society can be so misleading, understandably at times people who may have trusted another had also been hurt by them, so trust can be difficult to find, but I believe that a person will know it when it is truly found.

The person helping doesn’t need to have been around when the shock occurred, they would listen to you but may find they won’t be just listening to mainly to your version of events, but more so the underlying signals, the leaking words from your unconscious part of the mind where the pain lives, the person helping listens carefully as you may describe your past, from your words the person helping will pick up messages leaking that you may not be aware of.

It doesn’t matter if your version of events is not accurate, or that you are stuck in shock, the unconscious always leaks, even if you had consciously tried to block something you wanted to hide, a good and sensitive listener would sense this.

So what I am saying is that you may take a full hour talking about everything in the past, but the right listener would record a whole different story from the unconscious part of the mind leaking through. This is where you are helped as the listener reflects to you what they see and hear, this starts the unblocking process at that stage, to then continue further until the root of the behaviours becomes exposed, to be seen as they really are, awareness releases the pain that may cause today’s behaviours and struggles, that may have been trapped over many years possibly, and may find a sudden emptiness not felt of before, this may often be evidence of a void being created from what was once a place where trapped mental pain once lived. This void becomes nurtured and loved as the person helping reflects who they really see you as under the veils of past struggles.

So as you may see although not impossible, commonly there could be a need for just that one person to enter your life, one who has all the right qualities and traits to be there and guide you through, one who knows how to listen through your pain and struggles, one who had unconditional compassion and a natural desire to care for others without any consideration for a return reward, a person who you could feel totally at trust with.

Try to feel what this would be like as you read this, try to imagine a person to whom you may feel a need to fall before as you feel their help fill you, as they let you know that they are here with you, that a time can now come to heal if you want to take this journey with them. As they hold your hand to walk with you through the maze of blockages, knowing that at any point if you fall, they will catch you. Imagine how this makes you feel. Already you may feel a slight twinge of lifted hope inside just by these thoughts. Because you may have sensed a trusting for what you hope for and the gains that you could possibly achieve in just a small moment.

This is evidence that mind is responding resulting in feeling, because it knows beyond what you may not be aware of.
One of the major difficulties to treading these paths is that they are so painful, and the awareness that the root of all the surface behaviours is about to be faced in itself may cause such a heightened anxiety.
It’s understandable for one who suffers with a multiple personality disorder to shift personalities as a slight element of awareness to their pain and suffering becomes closer to them. So to find that right person is vital in order to help one in pain to find the strength and courage to fight through. In the case of multiple personality disorder each personally will need to experience the safety and security of the helper in order for the created personalities to dissipate.

You may have heard me comment that ‘in the end it is the relationship that always heals’, that a real, profound and genuine connection seems to create such a healing space that both the therapist or suitable person and the person seeking help both know at this point the process is working. I believe that if the relationship isn't there, the process to heal could be a struggle.

Especially if you find a counsellor/therapist clock watching, regimented and scripted, not giving you their full unconditional attention, rushing the process and keen to offer a receipt for their services etc, This will wont create the right conditions and presents the therapist in their own true light.

Of course people may wish to select suitable and understanding family members to be with them to help start the process, or even by themselves to deal with the underlying issues. If a person decides to try self therapy (Although could be difficult), a belief, courage and trust in their own abilities knowing that they can do this is important and should be supported by close, positive and supportive people around.

Apologies for the long reply, I hope you may have found some of the answers you hope to find, and maybe in some way, At this point, may have felt a difference, an unexplainable lift within yourself, something may have 'changed' that seems good, even if only slight. Why?.... Because possibly you have...Trusted a little.

As always take care

Andre
Do it...Afraid.

Troppus
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:49 pm

Re: Another stupid question?

Postby Troppus » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:30 pm

Hi Andre and Paul Moore
Thanks for the replies i appreciate it.
However I cannot lie in saying that I am deeply upset. I did get a lift andre as you said but it was followed immediately by deep sorrow.
Sorrow about how my life may have been different had people been more kind and genuine and trustworthy and not as abusive and cold. But it's not socially acceptable to blame others as it's seen as weak.
Both your replies point to counselling. I don't have access to that. I am on my own. I also don't have emotional support from people or family. And I won't be getting it either.
Does this mean that I'll be like this forever because there isn't someone to come and look inside my head and help me, rescue me as such? That I can't fix myself on my own so I'm doomed. It makes me sad to think that were all just a product of our environment.
So I have no support and if I let myself show myself in front of others I'm going to end up in hospital by people who think I just need to get fixed. It's funny how people around people with mental health remove themselves from the scenario altogether and point at their child to doctors and say ' something wrong with him her and Iv nothing I do with it' as my mother often did to me. Or recently saying ' she's not one of us at all'.

So as we can't see our thoughts ( I think Paul Moore my thoughts can lead to mild spells of depression and with deeper depression I also get then physical comes first and thoughts second) and I can't access my head directly because I'm already in there and no one else wants to so that's that.
As I picture someone walking into my life I can only feel more sorrow, as there's no point fantasising over such things but I'm still sorrowful and angry that ill never have a genuine trusting relationship with anybody, in the real world or in a therapists office. I've spent lots of money on therapists over the years and I can't help but think that they just wanted to keep me there for more money as I don't believe I made progress with any of them. And where money's involved genuinity goes out the window anyway.
I am trying to keep a journal to pinpoint triggers but I'm not coming up with any specific triggers, it seems anything can set off feelings, moods, thoughts. Which makes sense that I can't find triggers as I'm obviously resistant to acknowledging them.

So as I'm alone with this I will have to just bear walkng around the maze probably for the rest of my life aimlessly.
Sorry for such a downer of a reply I guess Iv just lost hope
Thanks anyway, for now I will just have to grin and bear these bad thoughts
Xx

AndreR
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:34 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Another stupid question?

Postby AndreR » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:53 am

Hello Troppus

You had experienced two emotions, one positive and one negative; here you may have experienced and observed for the first time the conflict between them both in one instant. Yet felt a sense of sorrow that immediately came afterwards, because of the experience of a lifting feeling that may have left you feeling ‘whole’, feeling free for a moment, to feel a sense of happiness all in one small moment.

Yet a part of you may have made you feel that you didn’t deserve to feel this goodness about yourself, in turn the negative feelings increased back, these kinds of shifts may often result from experiences of being verbally and emotionally abused, to be told you’re not worthy of love or to be loved is usually one of the themes to these kinds of abuse.

Of course I don’t presume you had experienced abuse but wanted to comment that when someone has a good thought about themselves, guilt and sadness tends to creep up soon behind the good feeling and tries to close it away, as such an emotionally and verbal abuse would do to a person’s own self worth. In time the abuse is so frequent and routine it becomes a conditional one in everyday living, sadly finding and believing good in oneself is in itself hard to accept and believe.

Helping yourself to think differently, fixing yourself and taking the journey to a more struggle free life is certainly a hard one, yet you have experienced that both positive and negative thoughts are with you, a positive thought about yourself may not have been felt for some time, hence the effect of a lifted feeling.

You have positive thoughts; the lifted feeling comes from them. The more you can experience these feelings and to consider ‘trusting them’, the more you can think about following them, as you do the negative ones may become quieter over time; the more the positives are followed the more the negatives fade.

This does take an amount of courage to take that first step, to start the change to think differently about yourself, to start rejecting any thought which attempts to take you away from the positive feelings and tries to tell you that “they are lies, that they won’t work, that it’s pointless trying because you will fail”. What tries to take away your happiness is a false sense of self, a part of you that could have been created out of negative experiences. In other words a learned helplessness, a learned understanding about what others have told you to believe. If you have a thought that makes you feel lifted, good about yourself, then this is that part of yourself that believes you want to follow it, the more you do, the more the positives will rise to your acceptance of them.

Your comment “I am trying to keep a journal to pinpoint triggers but I'm not coming up with any specific triggers, it seems anything can set off feelings, moods, thoughts. Which makes sense that I can't find triggers as I'm obviously resistant to acknowledging them”. You have a good understanding here, but keeping a journal in my opinion is an excellent way of trying to record triggers, if some triggers are in the unconscious, this should not deter you from the journal. A journal can help greatly to look at triggers, causes and most of all a way to regain control of life.

Keeping a journal is a statement to the bad thoughts telling them that you are now in control and that you will succeed in exposing them for what they are and that you will come to prove that these bad thoughts have no control over you, that these bad thoughts don’t belong to you, they were given to you, you were forced to take these thoughts and ended up owning them as your own. In your mind it is Time to give them back to where they came from. As you turn to the quieter true positive thoughts, as you do sensing them becoming stronger and louder.

There is always hope, (HOPE – Hold On Pain Ends) pardon the pun!. Hope never leaves you; it just becomes disguised under the low clouds, as these clouds begin to dissipate over time, hope rises from below to let you know it is always here.

It is difficult, it can be so hard and at times feeling there is nothing to live for, asking what’s the point, questioning yourself as a person, your worth, importance in life, bad thoughts create so much havoc on the mind that it’s so difficult to find a way through the maze of confusion. The thoughts seem too heavy, so loud and demanding, so convincing that positive thoughts seem nonexistent. Within a mind and world of turmoil its understanding to feel this way.

Yet I believe that good thoughts also live inside, they are there to rediscover, everything good and whole about you, everything kind and caring is there, even the strength and courage to overcome difficulties in life lie deep within.

Taking the road to rediscovering these natural characteristics about you means to keep faith and hope that these are your true qualities, to learn to trust in the positive and uplifting feelings, in this trust you may find the positives will sense your acceptance and will start to release more positives to you to feel, why does the positives do this? Because you has decided to believe in them. The positives within you will be so pleased because you are ‘accepting’ them they will continue to flow more and more as you accept and believe them..

No one can truly know anyone else’s pain. That in order for my words to make a difference is that you need to feel the relief 'now'. To feel free 'now'. Words may not always offer this freedom now, but the feeling you get when reading words may inspire somewhere inside you to make those decisions, in turn the relief you may have hoped to experience will start to come to you.

Against all negative and bad thoughts, just by trusting in yourself, believing that you can do this, and knowing that there is a wonderful, caring and compassionate person inside you that wants to love you on the outside and throughout.

Being treated badly for many years may not be an overnight fix, something conditioned within you, and the things you were made to believe will need baby steps to unravel and to unlearn what you had learned. I know you had mentioned there was no support, well I hope SANE forum so far has helped in some way and most of all knowing that support and care is always a place here for you from members.

Start believing, start hoping, start to learn to love yourself, know that you deserve everything good in life and more, to love and nurture yourself, to know you are strong, so courageous and brave, that these traits will start to make themselves aware to you. Trust that time will unfold these too you, if you decide to take the first step in accepting, believing and following any little good thing about you and what you can come to believe.

Any negative thoughts that want to fight you that tell you different, throw them all out on here, rant them out, let your fingers flow them into the forum, they don’t deserve your mind as their home, evict them, you don’t own them and they don’t belong to you.

My motto in life for me was "If you want to do something so much, but too afraid to? then do it afraid"

There is a lot here to take in, take what you feel could be of use; I hope you may find some inspiration.

"Some ideas to consider, Seek out all things that make you feel lifted, that makes you feel good about yourself, to be with supportive, understanding and caring people, just a chat with the right person over a phone call may help change a mood, when shopping visit shops that gives you a sense of calmness, feeling relaxed, lifted inside, buy an item of clothing without having to spend a lot out that makes you feel good.

The significance with the item of clothing means that you are "putting something good over yourself that you had identified as something good" something that is good wraps around you. (Of course be careful not to fall into the trap of buying to keep experiencing a positive high, but every now and then helps to contribute to all the other good things),to do things that gives you a feeling of goodness, reading uplifting and positive writing, good self help books, listening to music that creates an internal environment of uplifting feelings, news, watching positive TV,( I would say avoid newspapers and news on TV that tend to survive on bad news, you could be amazed at how this alone makes such a difference). Food can be expensive these days but maybe one or two little changes that wont be expensive in adding raw food i.e. fruit and veg etc could help any rises and lows in moods, moods resulting in triggers of the bad thoughts.

A walk in the outdoors can often give a sense of feeling free from worries, if something nice on your walk catches your eye stop to spend some time with this, absorb how this makes you feel, learning to sense goodness inside helping to recognise this lifted feeling anytime in the future, exercise in itself not only increases serotonin (the feel good chemical) but also increases oxygen levels helping to reduce panic attacks and anxieties, but importantly may help to connect socially with other people in turn could create new friendships etc, steering your way bit by little bit,to a life you want to feel and live"

The point overall is to learn to re-experience and reconnect to the real goodness about the true part of you, each lifted feeling helps to return this sense of self worth back to you, in turn trust and belief in the wonderful deserving person you are begins to return.

Most importantly use the forum for support if and whenever you need too and seek ways to reconnect with people that could lead to building deep connective relationships.

As always Take care
Andre
Do it...Afraid.

Troppus
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:49 pm

Re: Another stupid question?

Postby Troppus » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:25 am

Thanks again for your reply. I don't deserve good feelings, there is a saying ' you only gain in life what you Think you deserve'
I have of course being the negative resistant swine that I am found when fault in myself when thinking about your motto. And that's in the words 'want to do something' . Having thought this over all day and looked for what I want to do, I'm hitting a blank. I do nothing. Literally nothing. Everyday there is nothing I want to do anymore. And if I do do the slightest of something my body comes to an abrupt halt, I get dizzy, weak and tired and I know it's in my head. So I must have a motivation problem.
Today I am angry as I try to trust my positive side, and I haven't felt anger in a long time, and it's not a very convenient time to feel anger, I can only imagine I'm angry at myself for having a nice thought. How am I going to tame my anger as I become more and more positive I do worry as Iv tried many times to unravel my head I always go through the motions of many different bad feelings and I'm not in a place where I can express my rage at the moment as I have to play nice or else end up on a psych ward as I'll be seen as having a problem. Everyone around me is negative, there is no room for happy thoughts unless were faking it in front of others. I can't surround myself with understanding and caring people because I don't know any, well I know they exist I just haven't met them yet.
I stupidly believe that if I can make my family happy then it'll rub off on me as they are the ones who have caused my depression and lack of self worth ( not directly or obviously but by conditioning me to merge into their thinking and feeling ways) and yet I'm also aware that I'm responsible for my own happiness and health, but then I get dragged back to them as I feel I'm deserting them with their gloom. The comment my mother made about me not being one of them was a day where I pushed all my energy into being nice and positive and that's what I got. I'm aware I fall into the category of playing the victim, and try when I do then they gain control over me and if I'm not the victim then they play victim by ringing up relatives and even a psychiatrist once because I was upset, and that's not normal in this macho environment. I don't stand a chance.
If this bitterness I feel at having positive thoughts matches the vacant feeling of depression that I'm able to go to, then I surely won't make it. I need a goal to take my head off myself for a while.
I will take your advice regarding food and exercise. Although I have tried the looking good to feel good but I feel so bad at times it makes no difference. I do wonder that maybe I should remove myself from all people as they have such a bad effect on me I struggle to deal with some of the actions behaviours and ways of thinking that the people around me have. And yet I can't really do that or I'll feel guilty for being selfish. I could never have friends as a child as my mother wanted me all for herself and basically chased friends away from me, even now she ridicules people who I used to know. I am becoming aware of her influence over me, and I'm also aware that the problem is mine as I'm sensitive to being influenced but does knowing this make any difference? No it doesn't.
My guards up so much around them that all I'm left with is my guard which is now permanently up. So to remove that is going to probably cease me existing in my present form, I do doubt Iv the energy for such a task. But I guess it's worth a try but with no goal ahead to achieve I do worry but I guess it has to be a case of better to die trying than to not have tried at all.
Thanks for your advice and understanding and kind words although I'm not sure I deserve them ( oops)

PureFrustr8d
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:21 pm

Re: Another stupid question?

Postby PureFrustr8d » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:25 am

Hi Troppus....something you said: "But it's not socially acceptable to blame others as it's seen as weak."

I think you made a good point there. Why can't we blame others for ruining the life we could have had! No-one wants to accept responsibility but expect us to take responsibility for our own lives and pick up all the pieces. I want to shout and scream that they are all to blame, that they broke me, one by one, bit by bit!!! ...but like you said as soon as you even use the word 'blame' ...you just get this look and 'let's not talk about who's to blame' etc...until you wrote that in your post...I'd been pretty much conditioned not to even think about blame.

Peace


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